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Eva Grinstein: - Christian talked about
the fact that the old classifications are no longer useful, as for
example to talk about an art elite, a po-pular art, avant-garde
art, categories that have been set aside. And, suddenly, I was struck
by the dichotomy between art for art’s sake and political art.
The fact that you spoke of hate in the work of Oscar, (and yesterday
Reinaldo spoke of indignation when speaking of the Gru-po de Arte
Callejero (Street Art Group) drew my attention. These two ideas
are linked to the so-cial projection (of art) that we are analysing
in these meetings. So this dichotomy between art and political art
appeared, and I see clearly the role of political art but I do not
know which is the role of art for art’s sake, as for example,
trying to embellish the city.
Christian Ferrer: To embellish?
Eva Grinstein: - Embellish. A reaction by the artist that
is not indignant or hateful, that seems fresh and, if you want…
Christian Ferrer: - I am not an art critic, I cannot answer
that... The indignant gesture and the loving gesture are not necessarily
in opposition to each other. They are shades of the chromatic scale.
Every couple knows that, there are che-mical circulations between
love and hate, as in a still (apparatus for distilling liquid).
It seems to me that indignation arouses social commitment as much
as lovingness, as a taste for ornamentation leads to art for art’s
sake. This on the one hand. Neither do I see clearly that dichotomy
between art for art’s sake and social commitment; it seems
relative to me. The work that lasts is good in itself, it does not
matter if it is realism of the past century or symbolism. Some of
the realist work committed to the working class people was horrible
and much of the symbolist work is socially significant today. So,
there is this question of indignation, hate, they are detonators,
interesting passions. (…) What does seem important to me is
to analyse the type of indignation or the type of hate that moves
a person.
In relation to Eva’s question, the degree of indignation we
ought to feel today has to be higher to be able to activate something.
It is always said that the Greek thought was trigge-red by awe.
Today we do not stand in awe of anything; we need to feel horror
to be able to think. This is also the outcome of advertising. Indignation
and hate are not enough. What type of hate and which is the load
of hate one needs to feel so that something is intolerable? It is
feasible that some time ago people did not accept many to the things
we do now. So we should analyse the stimuli that drives people to
create a work of art -what form does their passion acquire?
(…) Our society is damaged, but all societies are damaged.
The pressures this society feels are different from the pressures
suffered by a person who lives in Indonesia. First, there is the
religious factor, which is di-fferent in Indonesia. Second, there
is the poli-tical factor, the political history in Indonesia is
different from that of Argentina. It suffered 600,000 deaths when
there was a coup against Sukarno 35 years ago. We suffered 30,000
deaths. This does not mean that there is a problem in graduation,
but it relates to how a society lived through this, what type of
censure and pressure was established on each society. Each society
has permanent regenerative strength. The dra-ma in Argentina is
that the public scenario does not allow for any kind of regeneration
-to put it in organic terms- it does not allow lung space, it does
not allow for the irrigation of the country’s nervous system.
All the regenerative strength has to go into fighting for…
cleaner areas -I do not like this word- I detest this type of hygienic
words, but well, one can understand…
I do not believe that anything is impossible…it is full of
people who do masses of things (...) there are a lot of people who
have learnt to fight in Argentina in a different way. Usually young
people, people that are not affected by the old symbolism of the
middle classes that are used to a type of relation between the State
and society that is no longer possible.
Immigration in Argentina
We just talked to Oscar on the immigrant factor in this city, a
factor that has been denied and that can be no longer denied. One
turns on te-levision and the immigrant factor is not there. (To
Oscar) You see it in a taxi but not on television. One watches soap
operas, one watches entertainment programs, the newsreel: and it
is not there. And yet, it has overtaken whole neighbourhoods.
(...) It appears to be a social problem, but there are wide social
practices, ways of establishing interchanges, businesses, new forms
of talking, new forms of relating to food that are part of the city.
I am impressed that it is so... that some of the arts do not hold
this phenomenon into account. It has not appeared in essays, for
example, it has hardly appeared in literature, but it is present
in the young cinema. The im-migration issue is permanently present
in the young cinema. I put this down to the weight resentfulness
still carries with the Argentine middle classes. In other words,
the fact that the middle classes feel the victims of the Menem policies,
of the policies of the International Monetary Fund, of the policies
of the World Bank, of the policies of the Martians with re-gards
to Argentina, country risk, that is to say, the middle classes have
felt offended for a long time. At the same time, they cannot react,
they constantly face attacks weakly, while other peo-ple that have
to fight to survive are active and do things for the city. Of course,
nothing is for free; it is not easy to do things. To be an author
implies taking a hard spiritual decision, and at the same time,
taking the dire consequences. This is why, the person who privately
thinks of becoming an author -accepting that there is a solitary
constitution of the author- is wrong: one needs a web of relations
that may promote the impulse. Now, a lot of things get done in Argentina,
many. Not everything is complaint.
Santiago García Navarro: -Christian, I wanted to
ask you something: On the one hand you talked about the end of the
myth, the loss of the myth in Buenos Aires that would be caused
by the interruption of a valid project for the country. You also
spoke of the fall of the Facundo-like qualities, of the destabilization
of the Facundo-like qualities, or of one of the two forces. What
is evident here in Buenos Aires, or a perception I share with other
people, is that these nets are knit more often and one may grasp
that they will last longer than others, or at least there is this
impression that they will last. That is why a name like Trama is
so relevant to our reality. What I want actually to ask you is whether
you can be more precise about what historical, po-litical, economic,
social, or whatever aspects, determined the loss of the myth, and
the des-tabilization of the Facundo equilibrium.
Christian Ferrer: -It would take too long, and I do not
see it clearly either. I think that the immigrant factor is important
to follow up as we were talking with Oscar. In the beginning of
the XX c. the immigrant factor was a component of the city of Buenos
Aires, and the inconclusiveness of the national project was what
allowed Buenos Aires to become an entity that generated culture.
The problem is today that the inconclusive national project has
disappeared. Then everything exploded, while the idea lasted, as
an ideal, there was an unresolved tension that ge-nerated culture,
in short, a neurosis. When it disappears…think that is a country
that may be dollarized any day.
On the other hand, the Facundo-like project may be long... but those
tense forces do not disappear, they are still here, always active.
When I read Sarmiento, I see the conduct of the public men representative
of Argentina, be they business men, politicians, magistrates, the
judicial apparatus, I see the same conducts that Sarmiento saw in
the XIX c., obviously different, but I see the continuity of all
that. They are e-quivalent... the scale between civilization and
barbarism joins them, I insist, so that they are forever destabilized.
Ever since I was born here in Argentina, I have only known state
coups, deaths, murders, social problems, unemployment, and inflation.
This is a dramatic country. I am impressed by the effort people
put into living as if they had not suffered forty years of drama.
I believe that this forgetting is a component of the current problems,
this trying to forget. I cannot give more concrete answers. If I
have them, they would be too long to analyse. It is more important
to see this web of associations answer a need in Argentina. Populations
are not destroyed, they find ways of survival. The group that has
suffered the most in Argentina are the middle classes because they
are not used to networking. It is something that is easier to do
in other classes that normally ex-perience falls; they experience
lack of prestige and experiment mental havoc.
Reinaldo Laddaga: - I would like to go back to what Christian
is saying and the question is directed specially to Ade, with reference
to the relation between networking and work. I know that we have
a terminology problem, especially with the word “work”
that is always central.
I am under the impression that an undertaking, an enterprise as
Ruangrupa establishes a complex relationship between the construction
of the network and the construction of work by an artist. And this
seems relevant to Trama.
I am not entirely sure that Trama should be thought as something
that is destined to, or that one of the ultimate aims of Trama would
be to become the best group of artists who do the best work. It
seems to me there is here an overlapping of the slide show, the
discourse and the socialization in this space here and outside in
between talks, that is far more complex than the work or the discourse
on the work. So I wonder what is the relationship between organising
a house, a social system, then, and making work that is shown after
been made... It seems to me it is a complex relationship, it seems
to me it is a type of construction that one may call frequent in
the art world, a complex relationship between networking and work.
I would like to know what you think about it.
Ade Darmawan: - The first thing we realised when we started Ruangrupa
was that there was going to be a political confrontation within
and without the art field. We could start to change something. I
do not really think that art can change society, but it can be a
source of inspiration. It is also important to work within a structure,
because we live within a structure,
a system, and if we do not like the system we have to introduce
a new one.
As far as networking goes, normally we are immersed in centralised
structures. I believe it is very important to be able to establish
small units that add up to work in a net, without limits, just work
together.
Christian Ferrer: - In no time, the whole of Ar-gentina will
become acquainted with this experience ...But the issue in this
specific environment is not if the country goes into the dollar,
but what does an artist do in relation to that? To go into dollars
is no big deal; the world has already gone into dollars... I mean,
everybody has mortgages or credits in dollars, or has bought things
in dollars, or goes to Colonia and puts away his or her small savings
in dollars in a bank in Colonia. What does an Argentine artist do
when this happens? The only one to do any-thing with money in Argentina
was Gostanian, when he printed Menem’s caripela on the peso
bills -do you remember? He did something. Everybody was indignant
or took it as a joke, but I said: He did something. It was an art
action! I wonder what an artist does with money? What does he do
with the relation between Argenti-na and the dollar? This is what
is interesting, and it should not be a ridiculous denunciation like
having Washington’s head on a dollar bill dressed up as a pirate.
That would be too ob-vious, wouldn’t it?
I know of two experiences. One was by the prin-ter Benavidez Bedoya,
who imagined a set of male and female coins. The other one by Ral-veroni,
who stamped a macabre dance on bills that were out of use. It relates
to what Eduardo does with outdated graphic work, he worked with
Argentine bills that were out of circulation, and drew a macabre
dance and changed them one by one. He gave an artistic bill for
each old one he was given. It was an interesting interchange. We
should see what artists do on that subject. Money is not a minor
issue for an artist, nor for a society. As you say, if it is not
with bonds, you have to come up with some sort of money to pay for
a coffee, the bus; you have to have some sort of money in your pocket.
This is what unites Argentine people to start with, having coins
in their pockets. If not one cannot move about. These are the questions
we have to ask ourselves. Other questions may be poli-tical or social,
but what does art do under that type of pressure? Or about bonds,
a word with which porteños are not familiar with. The in-habitants
of the province of Buenos Aires have learnt the meaning of patacón,
that did not exist a few months ago, but the porteño does
not know what bonds are, he does not have a clue. He has never seen
them or understood this type of interchange. One wonders what artists
are going to do about it.
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